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Old 24-02-2007, 21:31   #1
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Default "Why" the KV6 VIS fails and a fix

Having been donated a very dead KV6 plenum, it was split and the operating arm had fallen off the power valve butterflys. The reason is that the sockets moulded into the operating arm that clip onto the butterfly valves had worn:



A good operating arm looks like this:



Why does this happen???
3 theories:
1. The operating arm is lubricated with grease. In the failed unit the grease was very thick and felt abrasive. It could be that vapours and temperature cause the lubricant in the grease to dry out and turn it into a grinding paste.

2. The spherical crank pin of the butterfly valve is produced form a mould tool that is not polished. There is no sign of wear of these and it could be that the butterfly grinds away the operating arm.

We had the same problem at work. An actuator screw moulded form the same material as the butterfly would wear out a nut. When we had the tool polished, the problem went away.

3. The operating arm does not line up exactly with he butterfly valves. This causes a preload resulting in wear. When I made a new arm up from brass, it was made to the dimensions of the arm. It did not fit. I made a second arm to the dimensions of the valves and it fitted perfectly. Therefore The original arm needed to be flexed to fit.

Thats enough of theories. Now for the fix. A new operating arm was fabricated form brass, silver soldered together. The 3 arms can be compared here:


The brass arm does not clip onto the butterfly, it is assembled though a hole, then the arm is raised and a plunger retained with a circlip prevents the butterfly from escaping, this picture shows a socket in the arm

then the plunger assembled to stop the butterfly escaping through the larger end of the slot

When assembled to the plenum, it looks like this:


The motor works fine, no high loads and the valves open and close fully. Just need to find a way to reseal the cover, then vacuum test and wait for my plenum to wear out!
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Old 24-02-2007, 21:39   #2
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Default Re: "Why" the KV6 VIS fails and a fix

I'd have thought a decent line of RTV or bathroom silicone sealant on the joint and a few small self tappers would have it resealed.



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Old 24-02-2007, 21:46   #3
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Default Re: "Why" the KV6 VIS fails and a fix

I bow to you yet again.Top work as allways mate.

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Old 24-02-2007, 21:49   #4
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Default Re: "Why" the KV6 VIS fails and a fix

Very impressive bud well done that man.
Without tempting fate have you any thoughts about the butterfly spindle wear issue ?
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Old 24-02-2007, 21:53   #5
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Default Re: "Why" the KV6 VIS fails and a fix

Looks good Sheddist, V.Good job indeed. Please keep us posted and let us know how it all goes at least then we may be a step closer to fixing the problem all togeter, I supose its all about keeping the oil or rubbish like that from getting into the VIS motors and stopping them from failing once we have a fix to keep those butterflys attached to the arms?
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Old 24-02-2007, 21:59   #6
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Default Re: "Why" the KV6 VIS fails and a fix

The spindles on the dead plenum are sloppy. I am not sue yet if it wear or creep. They are under load when open or closed and as they do get quite warm it is possible that creep is the issue. They are very oily though and perhaps when new there is very little clearance. Then they either seize up or loosen up. Oil probably helps!
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Old 24-02-2007, 22:02   #7
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Default Re: "Why" the KV6 VIS fails and a fix

So if oil helps could a catch tank be a bad idea?

Shroon
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Old 24-02-2007, 22:18   #8
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Default Re: "Why" the KV6 VIS fails and a fix

Kills the motors does the oil!
I saw this setup last night at Nige's house, very very impressive too! The words boffin, plenum and genius spring to mind! (told you I'd put all those words in the same sentence Nigel! )
Jim
PS Ta for the sill covers!
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Old 24-02-2007, 22:24   #9
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Default Re: "Why" the KV6 VIS fails and a fix

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lates View Post
Very impressive bud well done that man.
Without tempting fate have you any thoughts about the butterfly spindle wear issue ?
That could well be caused by the preload that the opperating arm applies to the spindles due to it not been quite the right dimentions.
Just a thought........
Jim
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Old 24-02-2007, 22:39   #10
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Default Re: "Why" the KV6 VIS fails and a fix

nice job nigel



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Old 24-02-2007, 22:54   #11
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Default Re: "Why" the KV6 VIS fails and a fix

Nige!

Once again we are not worthy!

How do the two arms compare for weight?, and will the brass arm wear the plastic of the valve lever more rapidly now?????????

And how easy will said item be to reproduce on a mass scale? (i can see there being a big call for this in the future!)

Great work though Nigel- you continue to amaze us all!
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Old 24-02-2007, 23:00   #12
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Default Re: "Why" the KV6 VIS fails and a fix

Good questions Harbs,
Weight wise, there is a lot that can be done to reduce it. I just kept things simple but I am sure that the OE weight can be matched so that there are no new problems. With respect to wear, only time will tell. I will work on a test using something else that should give some clue as to what will happen. I have know plastic wear out steel before though! Also , I will try to lay my hands on some grease that is not affected by mineral oil or petrol vapour. Plain silicone grease is no good, it is not a good lubricant.

Producing more..
The arm can be water jet cut. The others are largely turned parts with a bit of milling. Nothing special. The most risky part is splitting the plenum. That is scary. I would not expect a 100% success rate there.
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Old 24-02-2007, 23:10   #13
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Default Re: "Why" the KV6 VIS fails and a fix

Plenums are bonded THAT well then are they!?!?
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Old 24-02-2007, 23:28   #14
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Default Re: "Why" the KV6 VIS fails and a fix

Would it be possiable to make a new lid for them, that way the old one could be removed bit by bit to reduce the chance of damaging the plenum?
Jim
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Old 24-02-2007, 23:41   #15
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Default Re: "Why" the KV6 VIS fails and a fix

Quote:
Originally Posted by blue harbour View Post
Plenums are bonded THAT well then are they!?!?

Very well indeedy, not much fun opening one up tbh.
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Old 25-02-2007, 00:13   #16
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Default Re: "Why" the KV6 VIS fails and a fix

Great stuff

It will be interesting to see how that plenum works when it's back together and fitted

If there's no danger of anything falling into the engine it should be brilliant - better than the orignal part.
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Old 25-02-2007, 10:33   #17
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Default Re: "Why" the KV6 VIS fails and a fix

Nigel

Will you be test fitting that repaired plenum on your car to see how it performs when fully installed????????

Does the power valve motor appear to have any trouble operating that arm compared to say the plastic one fitted as standard??????
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Old 25-02-2007, 11:59   #18
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Default Re: "Why" the KV6 VIS fails and a fix

The motor has no problems shifting the mechanism, this has been checked. As it is not clipped or flexed, there is probably less force required.

In terms of fitting, I want to do some tests first to understand the wear between the brass and the butterfly valves. It may be that the brass embeds itself into the surface of the butterfly and this will cause rapid wear. If that is the case, it is not difficult to fit bearing inserts made from PTFE. Plenty slippery!
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Old 25-02-2007, 12:01   #19
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Thumbs up Re: "Why" the KV6 VIS fails and a fix

So far so very good then pal!
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Old 26-02-2007, 22:27   #20
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Default Re: "Why" the KV6 VIS fails and a fix

Nigel you seem to be getting there hey ? !!!

Well done.

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Old 02-03-2007, 22:32   #21
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Default Re: "Why" the KV6 VIS fails and a fix

The next chapter unfolds.
A balance valve motor that had the switch treatment was still very intermittent and sluggish. The culprit is oil contamination of the motor

The motor was not rotating properly and the brushes were well worn when compared with a "bell end" removed form a new motor

The bell end of the new motor was assembled to a cleaned balance valve motor and all was well.
So an oil catch tank reduces the risk of balance motor failure. Oil and carbon brushes don't mix.

If anyone has an old HDD, don;t throw it away, the actuator inside that moves the pick-ups could find future use to operate VIS valves.

Wanted: dead HDD!!!
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Old 02-03-2007, 22:49   #22
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Talking Re: "Why" the KV6 VIS fails and a fix

Hmm

Seems like vindication of us having a catch tank fitted atleast!

Nigel- do you ever stop!??
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Old 03-03-2007, 00:38   #23
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Default Re: "Why" the KV6 VIS fails and a fix

Me being an electro aermodelist know very well how this brushed motors die before they should when under heavy use...hence why industry has introduced brushless motors for modelists.

Reliable and faster in response...almost maintenance free even under heavy use.

Any chance you could find the way to fit one of those brushless motors?

Catch oil tank then is a must...but those who alrerady have it fitted...is it 100% effective ?

Cheers,

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Old 03-03-2007, 00:48   #24
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Default Re: "Why" the KV6 VIS fails and a fix

Cant really say atm Alex havent had mine done long enough.
One thing i can say tho is iits collecting oil.

Harbs and sheddist has had Theirs in a long time now without any known problems .

Well as far as i know of.
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Old 03-03-2007, 08:35   #25
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Default Re: "Why" the KV6 VIS fails and a fix

I like the idea of brushless motors Alex!

Nigels next challenge!



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Old 03-03-2007, 08:45   #26
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Default Re: "Why" the KV6 VIS fails and a fix

Looking at reluctance motors. That is what Mann and Hummel are using on later plenums. We are looking at a reluctance motor project at work so perhaps the design may include features for alternative uses....

Regarding the original motors, there are versions available with wipers rather than brushes. They would probably work better.
Also looking at sealing the balance motor.
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Old 03-03-2007, 09:09   #27
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Default Re: "Why" the KV6 VIS fails and a fix

Always good when you can combine a work project with something at home!!!



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Old 03-03-2007, 09:19   #28
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Default Re: "Why" the KV6 VIS fails and a fix

Alex

The catch tanks CAN be 100% effective, but it depends on how you install them!

Mine was working very well, & i wasn't seeing even a drop of oil in the TB, but then i altered the pipework, and lo n behold the oil has come back ever so slightly!

I'll soon be going back to how i had it though to stop all the oil getting in there!
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Old 03-03-2007, 11:51   #29
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Default Re: "Why" the KV6 VIS fails and a fix

Harbs so what's your proven piping like ? A pic would be great..thanks.

Alex
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Old 03-03-2007, 14:04   #30
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Default Re: "Why" the KV6 VIS fails and a fix

I've only got a piccie of the cone in the inner wing area mate!

I'll put it up on here at some point today mate!
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Old 03-03-2007, 15:23   #31
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Thumbs up Re: "Why" the KV6 VIS fails and a fix

If you were asking for a piccie of my catch tank piping btw- then i don't have one showing the necessary things (that'd mean stripping things down which i just ain't got time to do currently!!
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Last edited by blue harbour; 03-03-2007 at 15:32.
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Old 03-03-2007, 16:44   #32
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Default Re: "Why" the KV6 VIS fails and a fix

Harbs I'd like both if you asked me...but a overlook on the catch oil tank installation would be enough to see the lengths of piped you've used and where you've connected them....but if it's asking too much no worries, really !!!

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Old 03-03-2007, 16:59   #33
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Default Re: "Why" the KV6 VIS fails and a fix

Piccie of my inner wing setup (what's left of my BMC kit!)





And here's a link to a piccy of my old inner wing setup- which will give you an idea of how i had it!

http://gallery.xpowerforums.com/show...53/ppuser/3878

Main differences now are that i'm using the filter from the bmc kit, and the TB pipe from the ITG kit!

And here's a link to a piccy of my old catch tank setup too mate (new setup is piped in pretty much the same- just using different pipe and a different tank too!)
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Last edited by blue harbour; 03-03-2007 at 17:04. Reason: additions
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Old 03-03-2007, 19:18   #34
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Default Re: "Why" the KV6 VIS fails and a fix

Thanks harbs...crystal clear now...on both things.

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Old 03-03-2010, 17:38   #35
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Default Re: "Why" the KV6 VIS fails and a fix

Know its an old thread but what was the outcome of the wear of the brass arm??
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