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Old 24-05-2006, 19:49   #1
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Question ZS clutch hydraulic system "Upgrade"

Something to anticipate.
Today I ordered a master and slave cylinder from Rimmer Bros. Not a ZS system but a good old fashioned TR6 system. I do not know if it can be made to fit and work but in light of issues people are having with slave cylinders breaking or detaching then it is high time that something is done to avoid this happening. Will keep you posted on the progress.

Anyone have a brake pipe flaring tool they are not using?
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Old 24-05-2006, 19:55   #2
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Default Re: ZS clutch hydraulic system "Upgrade"

Glad to hear your still trying to master the master/slave so to speak.
Hope your endevours are not in vain

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Old 24-05-2006, 19:58   #3
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Default Re: ZS clutch hydraulic system "Upgrade"

nice one sheddist ,you keep problem solving at this rate and soon we will all be in 100 % reliable cars,cheers



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Old 24-05-2006, 20:03   #4
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Default Re: ZS clutch hydraulic system "Upgrade"



Hope you can make something of this idea matey!

Be good if we can get round the o.e system and make it a more reliable setup!!!!!

Do i assume then that the TR6 system is a proven one- and as such MUCH more reliable!??????

Oh i- how you going with ya catch tank btw??????
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Old 24-05-2006, 23:14   #5
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Default Re: ZS clutch hydraulic system "Upgrade"

At least the TR6 parts are metal, repair kits are available, there is a bleed nipple and the slave cylinder has a proper mounting flange requiring real nuts and bolts!

I am hoping that the master cylinder mounting hole centeres are not far away from the hole centeres of the plate that the ZS master cylinder fits into.

The existing slave cylinder braket will have an appropriate mounting flange welded on then hopefully "all" that is needed are pushrods and plumbing.

Catch tank is working well. Graduly accumulating a brown smelly liquid.
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Old 25-05-2006, 17:56   #6
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Default Re: ZS clutch hydraulic system "Upgrade"

Parts arrived:
Slave cylnder is cast iron. BUT with a bore of 25.4 mm will loose around 6mm of output stroke compared with the 21mm of the existing system. So no good there. Will try a different one.

Master has almost identical bore and stroke to existing ZS. To mount will require a 12mm thick adaptor plate making use the existing mounting holes of the thin plate that supports the existing cylinder and studs to mount the new. A thick plate is required due to the shape of the bulkhead. In Aluminium it won't be too bad. The pushrod will nee to be cut thereaded and a long clevis made to suit. That will also give some adjustment.

All good fun!
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Old 25-05-2006, 20:40   #7
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Default Re: ZS clutch hydraulic system "Upgrade"

Good to hear- kind of!- you still seem pretty confident of being able to affect a cure!

As for your catch can- are you still seeing any oil in the TB????????- if so i can suggest a wee possible fix for ya matey!- it's worked on mine!
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Old 25-05-2006, 20:44   #8
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Default Re: ZS clutch hydraulic system "Upgrade"

I don't have a flaring tool myself but I guess I could make some pipes/send them to you at a nominal cost if that helps, if you send me plans etc?



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Old 25-05-2006, 22:34   #9
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Default Re: ZS clutch hydraulic system "Upgrade"

Thanks Gas-Axe, will keep that in mind for the plumbing season.

Harbs, I need to check the TB. None entering the filter box though. Come on spill the beans, what is your fix???????????????
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Old 25-05-2006, 22:36   #10
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Default Re: ZS clutch hydraulic system "Upgrade"

Quote:
Originally Posted by sheddist
Thanks Gas-Axe, will keep that in mind for the plumbing season.
Please do, it's not a problem at any time. I'm (along with others) very grateful for your 'investigative' work!



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Old 27-05-2006, 21:21   #11
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Default Re: ZS clutch hydraulic system "Upgrade"

Quote:
Originally Posted by sheddist
Something to anticipate.
Today I ordered a master and slave cylinder from Rimmer Bros. Not a ZS system but a good old fashioned TR6 system. I do not know if it can be made to fit and work but in light of issues people are having with slave cylinders breaking or detaching then it is high time that something is done to avoid this happening. Will keep you posted on the progress.

Anyone have a brake pipe flaring tool they are not using?
use as civic master cylinder with a rover 600d slave/release arm ... job done! no more clutch pedal higher than brake pedal syndrome, did this 5 years ago on my wifes 45 estate and it worked fine...
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Old 27-05-2006, 23:02   #12
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Default Re: ZS clutch hydraulic system "Upgrade"

Agreed,
I have sent the Triumph parts back and am looking at a Civic master cylinder with a Civic slave cylinder mounted on a new bracket. I now have the dimensions for the bracket to fit the gearbox and lever, just need to get the slave to finalise the dimensions. When done, drawings will be posted.

Found a good book at a local motor factors - the BEL catalogue, pictures and cylinder dimensions. It is surprising how few cylinder diameters are used.
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Old 27-05-2006, 23:57   #13
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Default Re: ZS clutch hydraulic system "Upgrade"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gas-Axe
Please do, it's not a problem at any time. I'm (along with others) very grateful for your 'investigative' work!
Yeah me also this guy never ceases to amaze me with his inventive endeavours.
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Old 28-05-2006, 09:27   #14
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Default Re: ZS clutch hydraulic system "Upgrade"

Are the civic clynders metal or plastic and is it a straight swop
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Old 28-05-2006, 09:45   #15
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Default Re: ZS clutch hydraulic system "Upgrade"

Looking at the pictures of the Civic parts, the master cylinder fits in place of the bracket that the ZS master clips into. The Civic master has a flange with holes that pass into the body instead. Much better. The only issue is that the fluid tank is remote. I am thinking of making somehting up to fit just in front of the expansion tank. The slave cylinder is a completely different fitting and needs a new mounting bracket making. This will then eliminate the possibility of the broken bracket that some have suffered.
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Old 28-05-2006, 10:34   #16
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Default Re: ZS clutch hydraulic system "Upgrade"

Quote:
Originally Posted by sheddist
Thanks Gas-Axe, will keep that in mind for the plumbing season.

Harbs, I need to check the TB. None entering the filter box though. Come on spill the beans, what is your fix???????????????

Sheddist!- it's no big secret mate!- all it is- is the inlet pipe actually goes down into my catch tank- say 20-30mm, were-as the outlet pipe is flush with the fitting !

Thinking being (and it appears to be working aswell!) is that the vacuum can't simply draw vapour's straight out of the inlet pipe- and right into the outlet!- because there away from one another!

It appears to be working well too! - obviously this kinda setup is only relevant if your tanks inlet/outlet pipes are right next to one another!- but from memory -your's are- same as mine- so this idea might just be worth trying!

Must admit i was a wee bit apprehensive at the thought's of switching to TR6 component's when the inevitable clutch hydraulic failure happens!- this whole new civic route sounds a lot more promising to me!!!!!!!!

Hope it works out!

Will be especially handy for those of us who have suffered multiple hydraulic failure's!!!!!!!, mine keeps on going on fine- but im always thinking about WHEN it will eventually go!

Is there anybody out there with a zs180 that HAS'NT had slave master cyl failures- and has racked up a good few miles aswell!????????

Im currently on 21,000 miles- and as far as i know- im still on my original system!?!- but that kinda mileage is nowt really!- anyone out there done 50,000+ without throuble???
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Old 28-05-2006, 14:20   #17
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Default Re: ZS clutch hydraulic system "Upgrade"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Byron
Are the civic clynders metal or plastic and is it a straight swop
The civic master cylinder is alloy and is a direct replacement for the plastic zs one, i seem to recall using a civic clutch pedal too.
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Old 28-05-2006, 20:01   #18
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Default Re: ZS clutch hydraulic system "Upgrade"

My concern with the hydraulics is that they can fail without warning - slave falling off bracket and breaking or just snapping in half. Coupled with reported bracket failures for master and slave. Does not inspire confidence.
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Old 28-05-2006, 21:13   #19
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Default Re: ZS clutch hydraulic system "Upgrade"

Quote:
Originally Posted by sheddist
My concern with the hydraulics is that they can fail without warning - slave falling off bracket and breaking or just snapping in half. Coupled with reported bracket failures for master and slave. Does not inspire confidence.
you should not have those concerns using the honda parts!
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Old 29-05-2006, 14:29   #20
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Default Re: ZS clutch hydraulic system "Upgrade"

Some progress to report.
Slave cylinder bracket removed and a fixture built that picks up on the mounting holes and the slave cylinder push rod position.
Awaiting slave cylinder then design of new bracket can be finalised.

Looking at how little support there is between the bracket and slave cylinder makes me realise just how weak the ZS system is.
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Old 29-05-2006, 16:28   #21
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Default Re: ZS clutch hydraulic system "Upgrade"

Quote:
Originally Posted by sheddist
Some progress to report.
Awaiting slave cylinder then design of new bracket can be finalised.
I can't understand why you are designing a new bracket when there are at least two standard one's in Rovers parts bin that will do the job! Rover 600 and MGF... or am i missing something? The only disadvantage i can see would be the need to remove the gearbox to fit the matching arm but its a very easy job to do.
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Old 29-05-2006, 17:07   #22
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Default Re: ZS clutch hydraulic system "Upgrade"

I would prefer to make a new bracket and a simple swap rather than have the gearbox out. At least if there any problems with the new system, it is very simple to go back tot he original.
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Old 29-05-2006, 17:36   #23
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Default Re: ZS clutch hydraulic system "Upgrade"

Quote:
Originally Posted by sheddist
I would prefer to make a new bracket and a simple swap rather than have the gearbox out. At least if there any problems with the new system, it is very simple to go back tot he original.
ok now i understand! but i did this conversion ages ago and my wife used the car for 25,000 miles without any problems whatsoever (the car was sold at this stage), the system was a joy to use and did not suffer with the clutch pedal being higher than the brake pedal as most 45/ZS's do.

here's the car.... 45 estate

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Old 29-05-2006, 18:06   #24
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Default Re: ZS clutch hydraulic system "Upgrade"

I don't think that the high pedal will "go away" as the volume of fluid displaced by the Civic cylinder will be less than the ZS. This is partly compensated by the smaller slave cylinder diameter.

ZS - Master Bore = 18 Slave Bore = 21

Civic = Master Bore= 15.87 Slave Bore = 19.05

Based on a 27mm master cylinder stroke, the ZS slave moves 19mm, Civic, 18mm.

Many of the problems of the ZS180 clutch hydraulics are probably down to the higher forces in the system compared with the smaller engines. Lowering the clutch pedal will result in a higher force on the pedal. Something I do not want.
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Old 29-05-2006, 18:12   #25
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Default Re: ZS clutch hydraulic system "Upgrade"

Sounds to me like you two guy's could do wi getting together n sharing idea's/solutions!

We could very well then have a cast iron very reliable solution to the problem of the 180 and the crappy hydraulic clutch system!
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Old 29-05-2006, 18:47   #26
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Default Re: ZS clutch hydraulic system "Upgrade"

Quote:
Originally Posted by blue harbour
Sounds to me like you two guy's could do wi getting together n sharing idea's/solutions!
I'll bring me camera and some beers!!



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Old 29-05-2006, 19:24   #27
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Default Re: ZS clutch hydraulic system "Upgrade"

Quote:
Originally Posted by sheddist
I don't think that the high pedal will "go away" as the volume of fluid displaced by the Civic cylinder
.
did you not read any of what i wrote? i have done this and the high pedal WILL go away!!
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Old 29-05-2006, 20:38   #28
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Default Re: ZS clutch hydraulic system "Upgrade"

Martin
I think a meet is called for, where are you in Brum??
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Old 29-05-2006, 21:33   #29
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Default Re: ZS clutch hydraulic system "Upgrade"

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Originally Posted by sheddist
Martin
I think a meet is called for, where are you in Brum??
workshop is in stirchley... details are here www.reyland.co.uk
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Old 29-05-2006, 22:04   #30
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Default Re: ZS clutch hydraulic system "Upgrade"

Just around the corner from where I work!

Small world
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Old 29-05-2006, 22:44   #31
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Default Re: ZS clutch hydraulic system "Upgrade"

Quote:
Originally Posted by sheddist
I don't think that the high pedal will "go away" as the volume of fluid displaced by the Civic cylinder will be less than the ZS. This is partly compensated by the smaller slave cylinder diameter.

I thought most Mk2's had the high clutch pedal issue resolved, it was highlighted in the press release as being one of the improvements in the Mk2.

This improvement came along shortly after Mk2 production started though because some early cars still had the very high clutch pedal.

Does anyone know what they changed?
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Old 29-05-2006, 23:16   #32
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Default Re: ZS clutch hydraulic system "Upgrade"

Don't know what/if they changed ,but if te hydraulics are the same then i pressume its some kind of stop on the pedal itself
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Old 30-05-2006, 07:43   #33
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Default Re: ZS clutch hydraulic system "Upgrade"

The pedal stop is in the mast cylinder itself.



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Old 06-06-2006, 22:16   #34
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Default Re: ZS clutch hydraulic system "Upgrade"

Making steady progress.
Have a look at the attached pikkies showing the bracket and Civic slave cylinder.
Decided to make the bracket out of aluminium and rivet it together.

An adaptor is needed ot extend the push rod to match the existing system.

Working out some of the forces and stresses in the system. pedal pressure is 140N (about 32 lb) This equates to a fluid pressure of around 4.72 N/mm^2 or 683 psi. Rather a lot for plastic pipes. I was thinking of using 6mm air hose and push in fittings to connect the cylinders but under that sort of pressure, the stuff will stretch. Back to plan A using brake pipe.

I wonder how much the existing pipe stretches and how much pedal travel is lost by this?

The force on the slave cylinder ends up at 1344N, giving a tensile stress on the plastic of around 10N/mm^2. Not a lot for a material with a tensile strength of 64. The problem is that the cylinder moulding design is poor. There are too many sharp edges that concentrate the stress, resulting in the sort of breakages we have seen or suffered.

The Civic master cylinder has a proper mounting flange that replaces the plate that the ZS cylinder clips into. The only down side is that a remote fluid reservior is required. I have made something up and positioned it near the expansion tank using one of the expansion tank fastening points.
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Old 06-06-2006, 22:22   #35
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Default Re: ZS clutch hydraulic system "Upgrade"

Amazing work and effort mate.It never ceases to amaze me the dedication you have

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