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Old 11-12-2004, 17:22   #71
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Old 12-12-2004, 21:43   #72
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Default Re: ZS180 vs Hot Hatches & wins!

"I accept NOS is OK if all you want to do is go in straight lines at Santa (boring)."

Flinty
I bet you have never even done the quarter mile so how you can say its boring is beyond belief,it must be one of the most accessable forms of motorsport with (imho) a far more friendlier crowd of people than ive come across on some track days ive attended.
But most of all it cuts through the bull**** of all the VRS threads you can read on the net as theres so many variables involved in a random street race that to draw conclusions is rediclious.
If you race a car at pod you can ask what its power is and find out wether the driver is a player or not.
But to get back on the Vrs and in particular the V6 clio mk1, would any one care to guess what power @ the wheels one of these beasties puts out?

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Old 12-12-2004, 21:51   #73
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Old 12-12-2004, 22:01   #74
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Default Re: ZS180 vs Hot Hatches & wins!

Thats what i'd have thought Dave but i see one today that only put down 168 @ the wheels so if this is the case it would explain how a ZS180 could live with one.
What about the mighty R32 Golf ?????

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Old 13-12-2004, 00:33   #75
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Default Re: ZS180 vs Hot Hatches & wins!

Has anyone bumped into the new Golf GTi at the lights? I know the DSG version could be a problem but the manual might be worth going up against ho ho
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Old 13-12-2004, 09:57   #76
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Old 13-12-2004, 11:58   #77
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Default Re: zs180 vs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Flint
NOS is for pussies who can't maintain the power. Buy a proper engined car and you'll do without NOS.

NB: I accept NOS is OK if all you want to do is go in straight lines at Santa (boring).

No where is the watering can, to put those fires out?

Jerry

Get the distinct feeling you don’t like NOS :xlol:
Can’t think why MG would want to use it on the SV, no way that thing will show up at a RWYB day at POD.

I have to agree with you, NOS should only be used on the track i.e. POD, as I said in my post the race I witnessed was at POD so I guess that counted.
Mind you in saying that, both cars took a dfferant approached to achieve their goal, one used NOS the other stripped out the car, neither being a conventional tunning route but both very effective .


I understand your comments on the conventional route to tunning but NOS is very useful on Turbo engines, has 2 key bennefits, cooling the charge temps at high loads and increasinng the power, neither of these 2 situation should be experienced on the public roads :xeek: so I see no requirement for it’s application on a raod car.

I will deffinatly not go the NOS route on my road car, the track car yes but not looking at anything more than 30-50 shot for the above reasons and that will only be used on the mile and top speed runs.

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Old 13-12-2004, 13:31   #78
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Default Re: ZS180 vs Hot Hatches & wins!

Must admit i tend to agree that all this v's is all balls as your car might mnot be faster just that you better driver. i do find them a good laugh now and again
as for 1/4 mile its a goodday and yes it is very friendly in a nice relaexed atmosphere with no snobbery everyone is happy to chat and show mods

you should try things before slagging them off belive me once you there you outlook will change
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Old 13-12-2004, 15:02   #79
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Default Re: ZS180 vs Hot Hatches & wins!

Basically, I am finding out what a lot of us knew a long time ago,

The ZS, with a couple of mods is one of the best, if not the best bang for buck package you can get, on the strip and round the track.

Kevs ZS has a power to weight ratio better than that of a 3.0 Clio V6, 3.2L Golf R32, 2.0 Turbo Escort Cosworth, Scoobies, etc, etc.

Most people would not believe you if you said you were able to keep up with and then lose these motors.

Yeah, the 4 wheel drive kit would probably be better on a wet day but 4 wheel drive robs SOOOO much power and the other N/A engines out there are no match for the KV6 in terms of power to weight and in the case of the screaming 4 pots, delivery.

Matt.
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Old 13-12-2004, 15:42   #80
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Default Re: ZS180 vs Hot Hatches & wins!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Hicks
Basically, I am finding out what a lot of us knew a long time ago,

The ZS, with a couple of mods is one of the best, if not the best bang for buck package you can get, on the strip and round the track.

Kevs ZS has a power to weight ratio better than that of a 3.0 Clio V6, 3.2L Golf R32, 2.0 Turbo Escort Cosworth, Scoobies, etc, etc.

Most people would not believe you if you said you were able to keep up with and then lose these motors.

Yeah, the 4 wheel drive kit would probably be better on a wet day but 4 wheel drive robs SOOOO much power and the other N/A engines out there are no match for the KV6 in terms of power to weight and in the case of the screaming 4 pots, delivery.

Matt.

YEP

What he said

By the way, Kev, what did your car make at the rollers last weekend?

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Old 13-12-2004, 20:23   #81
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Old 13-12-2004, 21:48   #82
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XPF Re: ZS180 vs Hot Hatches & wins!

you're all boy racer's the lot of you! :xlol: :xlol:
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Old 13-12-2004, 23:59   #83
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Default Re: ZS180 vs Hot Hatches & wins!

The R32 put down 170 @ the wheels iirc but i got it wrong with the clio-it was 163.
Matts Ti was 165 and my ZS [email protected] /189.5lbft 4361rpm.

In isolation the rolling road results mean nothing in comparing to other ZS's but very interesting when to other cars.Power to weight based on power at the wheels shows who's the daddy and judging by what i see yesterday the ZS comes out top in that department.
So get out there boyz theres some easy scalps to be had

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Old 14-12-2004, 00:03   #84
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Default Re: ZS180 vs Hot Hatches & wins!

Oh yeh
I noticed flintys keeping a low profile on this thread now
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Old 14-12-2004, 00:10   #85
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Default Re: ZS180 vs Hot Hatches & wins!

Kev 166 ?..that's very good indeed...mine is just 144 from standard so with the new big bore Piper exhaust and the filter (both already fitted ) and hopefully new H&S manifolds and Sport cat should get there myself...mmmm...very excited now...oh yes

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Old 14-12-2004, 00:13   #86
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Default Re: ZS180 vs Hot Hatches & wins!

kev what spec to get 166 mate ?


i run 160 at the wheels with cat back induction and remap?
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Old 14-12-2004, 02:10   #87
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Old 14-12-2004, 08:00   #88
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Default Re: ZS180 vs Hot Hatches & wins!

iirc...............if I remember correctly

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Old 14-12-2004, 18:51   #89
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Old 14-12-2004, 19:46   #90
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XPF Re: ZS180 vs Hot Hatches & wins!

Quote:
Originally Posted by davebreen
factory quote 175 at fly for zs 180 ,seems most are making about 142,143 bhp at wheels so you loose 32ish bhp through drivetrain,so kevs making 166 at wheels is about 198 at fly,so why does the v6 clio with 230ish claim for fly only make 163 at wheels,thats more than double the loss of the zed,is zs super efficient or clio very unefficent, or is there something ive not accounted for.
See 180 boys makes 210 at fly,so about 177 at wheels ,how do you get gains like that without cams or manifold, id of thought re map ,induction, cat back system would only give you gain of mani or cams on there own,about 160ish,what dont i know about?
IIRC 180 boys car is gettin that power from a bmc cda kit/a piper cat back sys & a superchips remap & that's all!-pretty good aint it!

As fars as the clio goes as regards transmission losses,then such a big loss through the transmission does seem a bit suspicous to me-but then again if the gearbox is as crap as it is in my old man's lotus then i can underastand it - to some extent, cos if the renault gearbox used in me fathers car is a testament to french engineering then it's truelly awfull!!!!- there also known for being a bit fragile aswell-and the gearchange is really notchy/baulky in the lotus-spoils the car to a great extent-(would be much nicer if it had a light clutch and a smooth easy gearchange!)
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Old 14-12-2004, 20:05   #91
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Old 14-12-2004, 20:16   #92
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XPF Re: ZS180 vs Hot Hatches & wins!

Quote:
Originally Posted by davebreen
if that is right mine should be up there in 200's then later in week when i put on bmc i have de cat too though,theres more to it than that surely.
Have you got you're bmc early then?-were from?-only thought you were orderin one through wirly early next year!?
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Old 14-12-2004, 20:46   #93
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XPF Re: ZS180 vs Hot Hatches & wins!

Dave!,how loud or intrusive is you're zorst with you havin a decat pipe on?-cos when i did this on my coupe(which had a piper cat back sys on)-i found the car was A LOT LOUDER than when cat was in place!,yes it was noticably slower aswell (which meant decat pipe was on most of time! :xcool: ;x) ),but sometimes at motorway speeds the zorst would get right on my nerves cos it was very boomy-and this would become annoying on a long journey!-on the + side though the car did sound fantastic!-and for that matter quite unique aswell!
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Old 14-12-2004, 22:49   #94
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Old 14-12-2004, 23:27   #95
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XPF Re: ZS180 vs Hot Hatches & wins!

Dave what you doin with a zs 180,when you've previously had a scooby?-most folk would call that takin a step back surely!-in terms of performance anyway!!!!
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Old 15-12-2004, 09:31   #96
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Default Re: ZS180 vs Hot Hatches & wins!

My standard ZS180 has 146 bhp at the wheels running on Optimax :xcool:
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Old 15-12-2004, 09:51   #97
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Old 15-12-2004, 13:42   #98
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Default Re: ZS180 vs Hot Hatches & wins!

Guys

As we have learned over the years, rolling road figures can be misleading, it’s a general rule of thumb within the community that the @wheel figure is used, this helps to cut down the inevitable gains/losses when trying to calculate @fly.
I think if you look at Kev’s @wheel figure and compare that to a standard the increase for modifications is pretty good.
Standard @wheels 144
Kev’s @wheels 166
That totals a 22 gain @wheels, now how many other NAS cars can produce those gains with just induction and manifolds?
Just proves the point that Rover didn’t think to hard about the build when it came to these items.

It’s another general rule of thumb that for every @wheel gain will be more at the @fly!
I’m not going to attempt a calculation but a rough guess would put Kev’s @fly over the 200 mark for sure.

As they say, “the proof in the pudding is in the eating”, please don’t take what I’m about to say as offensive or that I’m trying to teach you to such egg’s but the real world performance of the car can only really be judged and results attained by doing a head to head test, most of the motor press actively use this method to sort the men from the boys so to speak, usually with surprising results.
Take a look at all the road and track test the ZS180 has done over the past 3 years, the results are conclusive, it always does well, very little in the overall results when compared to the competition.

I have personally witnessed what a moderately modified ZS180 can do on both the mile strip and the track, anyone who has doubts about this PLEASE haul your self along to a track day were a modified ZS180 is being used, be prepared for some astonished looks on peoples faces.

The ZS inspires confidence when driven hard, I for one have never found it’s limit as my bottle goes long before the car lets go, the ZS180 does (proven fact) benefit when you modify the induction, it allows the engine to breath and unleashes more power. This along brings the ZS180 inline with some of the other cars in the same class, the breathing can be increased by using the modified manifolds, again this isn’t breaking news as QED experimented with manifolds 3 years ago and found loads of power.

The ZS180 potential is still being discovered and I’m sure there will be much more to come, I think Matt said in his post that the base KV6 unit is a very good to start with, I agree, it’s a strong engine and power increases are well within it’s stand build capacity, it seems to be the owners that are developing it’s power rather than the tuners (the exception being QED). With a quality induction kit, manifolds and cams I’m sure the KV6 would be a very reliable and fast car, the brakes and suspension are still adequate for increases in excess of 250bhp.
Many people said at the beginning of the ZS/ZT life it wasn’t advisable to push the torque or power too far with this engine as it was fragile, guess what LOL, Kev is producing 215 @fly and he gives that car death round the track, mile and of course his own private race way, no problem to date, no engine failure this is a testament to it’s build quality, plus the way it handles on track on it’s OE suspension and brakes.
I know quite a few people that are running NOS, OK sore subject but 50, 75 even 100 shots are being used on the standard engine with no real problems other than premature clutch failure.

TBH, if I was in the market for a car why not pick up a used ZS180, have a few choice power mods done and you have a cheap modern power house that handles well both on the track and road.

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Old 15-12-2004, 14:12   #99
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Thumbs up Re: ZS180 vs Hot Hatches & wins!

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Old 15-12-2004, 14:43   #100
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Default Re: ZS180 vs Hot Hatches & wins!

Dave

Your right sir, I watched this in action during a track day at CC earlier this year, Kev’s ZS was out performing a range of cars you wouldn’t have thought possible.
He had the legs on a 300+bhp Scooby being driven by one of the CC instructors, after that session the instructor had a few words with Kev about his set-up, he walked away quite surprised.
Watching it in the bends was the best part, he carried the speed and the set-up looked so balanced he didn’t need to be aggressive on the brakes, the car took it all in it’s stride and this is still on standard suspension and brakes.
As for straight line speed, well 14.2 at POD aint a bad start, there are plenty of area’s that can be improve upon for faster times and I’m sure someone will be breaking into the high 13’s before long and with very little money spent.
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Old 15-12-2004, 16:59   #101
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Default Re: ZS180 vs Hot Hatches & wins!

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Old 15-12-2004, 20:22   #102
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XPF Re: ZS180 vs Hot Hatches & wins!

Dave what is it about the zs when compared to the scoobys that leads you to say that zs has a scooby licked on all but straight line speed/acceleration?

I personally would'nt have thought the zs would be able to out handle a scooby-coming from the point of the scooby having 4wd and the zs having fwd etc,surely at speed when pushing z zs round the twisty's understeer becomes a major issue!
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Old 15-12-2004, 20:54   #103
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Old 15-12-2004, 21:26   #104
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XPF Re: ZS180 vs Hot Hatches & wins!

Quote:
Originally Posted by davebreen
don't know bout your zs but mine don't understeer at all,just oozes confidence,scoob can romp through corners don't get me wrong but soon as your trying its understeer all the way with the hedge drawing you in like a magnet pulling hard and mine had brand new 18 inch rubber which was loads better than crap standard bridgestones.You came out corner thinking phew not wow like in zs.Compared to zs which stays relatively flat and squat through bends scooby was positively wollowy rolling way to much,driven in isolation you would think it was good but jump in zed and the flaws are obvious,brakes were just adequate too.If you just want to waste people from lights you can't beat it but for folks who realize theres more to driving don't bother.Mine was 2000my classic shape so can't speak for others.
Build quality was pants,doors sounded like tin and bits of interior often fell off.
Well when i mention understeer-yes my 180 does undesteer,but i,ve not had it all that long and it was toward back end of summer when i got it-meaning weather has took a down hill spiral!-generally when i get understeer its power understeer you understand-and tbh you dont seem to be able to push the car even slightly at the moment cos the roads round here are so damn greasy! :xmad: - as an example,iv'e now had understeer(both on and off throttle) and had the whole car feeling like its drifting as one(several times in last two weeks)-thats how slippy it is at mo!-and am not even trying at that!

Traction is also proving to be a problem aswell at mo!-(if i go to punch out from a junc im struggling to stop front wheel/wheels spinnin up in first and sometimes second)-again not really tryin either!

Tbph i cant recall roads being this bad/greasy-ever since i started driving!-dont know what it is-but at mo roads everywere round here feel like you're driving on glass!-with the odd exception that is!

and yes i've got to agree that generally the zed does inspire heaps of confidence in it's ability's-more so than anything i've ever driven-with one exception(but that's a different ball park!)-my confidence in myself-and my trust in others not to do owt stupid-always gives up way before the car runs out of talent!-(i've never had that much confidence tbh,and lost a lot of my bottle when i had an accident last year!)-not my fault btw-but i dont take as many chances as i used to and get s**t up very easily now!
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Old 16-12-2004, 00:59   #105
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Default Re: ZS180 vs Hot Hatches & wins!

one thing me and dave have the hatchback which has less overhang at rear so bound to be slightly better round the bends

someone i know drove both and said the hatch is tighter :xcool:
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