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Old 07-07-2012, 09:54   #1
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Default Anybody fitted a 190 Throttle Body on a 180?

As the title really! I'm just wondering if there is any potential power gain by doing this?
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Old 07-07-2012, 10:13   #2
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Default Re: Anybody fitted a 190 Throttle Body on a 180?

I thought they were the same tbh.
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Old 07-07-2012, 11:20   #3
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Default Re: Anybody fitted a 190 Throttle Body on a 180?

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Originally Posted by peteT16 View Post
I thought they were the same tbh.
and me!


its mapping and IIRC cam timing that are different
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Old 07-07-2012, 11:45   #4
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Default Re: Anybody fitted a 190 Throttle Body on a 180?

I've heard that they are 80mm instead of the 70mm !!
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Old 07-07-2012, 22:13   #5
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Default Re: Anybody fitted a 190 Throttle Body on a 180?

thought they were 70mm on all kv6.

they taper down from 70mm to 55mm where the butterfly is anyway!

made by bing, they also make the old p38 range rover ones, never tried fitting or adapting one as I went r800 manifold route, but they are bigger.
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Old 09-07-2012, 11:49   #6
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Default Re: Anybody fitted a 190 Throttle Body on a 180?

Same I believe. I htink I even ordered one off a 190 way back when i had a sticky throttle.

55mm eh? bore it out, fit a bigger butterfly, win?
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Old 09-07-2012, 12:48   #7
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Default Re: Anybody fitted a 190 Throttle Body on a 180?

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Same I believe. I htink I even ordered one off a 190 way back when i had a sticky throttle.

55mm eh? bore it out, fit a bigger butterfly, win?
theres virtually nothing to bore out, 2mm wall iirc. and getting the butterfly to fit would'nt be easy or worth the hassel factor. Would'nt you need to port the head also to allow for any increase in airflow? Lose.
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Old 09-07-2012, 12:59   #8
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Default Re: Anybody fitted a 190 Throttle Body on a 180?

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Originally Posted by MG ZS STE View Post
theres virtually nothing to bore out, 2mm wall iirc. and getting the butterfly to fit would'nt be easy or worth the hassel factor. Would'nt you need to port the head also to allow for any increase in airflow? Lose.
No you wouldn't need to port as the heads are good for around 250bhp anyway!! I was just looking if increasing the TB would help out power wise? The KV6 seem to have lots of power restricting things bolted to for some reason
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Old 09-07-2012, 17:20   #9
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Default Re: Anybody fitted a 190 Throttle Body on a 180?

KV6 std ports worth of 250 hp......
With std inlet valve lift of 8,2 mm in theory yes, but in practice not.

Std 31,5 mm inlet valve in OE inlet port will flow around 97 fcm, in my test head 96,2 cfm. Theory says that max power will be 0,43 x 96,2 hp/cylinder.
0,43 x 96,2 = 41,4, 41,4 hp x 6 = 248 hp.

Notice that this formula (which many "port grinders" use to fool Tesco-racing kids ) will work ONLY IF the engine is build for absolute max. Meaning it have full racing cams, big TB /cylinder, competition combression ratio, minimised squish area, custom made racing exhaust manifolds and exhaust system having the best pipe diameters and lenghts, big injectors, and very good Ecu with professional settings etc, etc.. After that it MIGHT be possible to have 250 hp in KV6 with std ports. In real life never.
The reason is the lack of inlet air velocity in very complicated inlet system and odd shape ports having several bends before inlet valve insert opening. Also 250 hp engine will produce so much exhaust fumes
that std exhaust ports will be limiting factor.

But nodge68 is on right track. OE TB in KV6 is not the limiting factor. It is inlet cam which do have very low valve lift and opening period like in 1965 Ford Anglia 1100.
Installing OE exhaust cams to inlet side also or using 270H inlet cams there will be much more advantage than playing with OE TB butterfly diameter.
Ofcourse only if Ecu can be reset to match changes made..
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Old 09-07-2012, 21:06   #10
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Default Re: Anybody fitted a 190 Throttle Body on a 180?

Very interesting information as always
The 190 TB was just a thought I had that might improve the breathing where the air enters the plenum so help it breath a little easyer. I know it's not going to produce massive power but it "may" improve throttle response? The inlet cam is a massive power limiter!! I can't find any data on exhaust cam timings so I'll have to measure them myself when I get the opportunity. If the exhaust cam on the inlet works then that would be a cheap alternative to a 270° Piper kit. The factory exhaust mani's fitted are truly dreadfull!! If you have ever seen them close up you'd wonder how it makes the power it does!!
The primaries are 1/4" smaller than the ports for starters. Next is the length which is to short. Then the collector is of such a dreadfull design that all 3 primaries are squashed into a space that would only accommodate 2 side by side!!
Look at the image of the pipes in the collector!!

None of which will be good for power!! It would have been better flow wise to 1 over 2 in the collector and easyer to weld a gas tight seal! Having said that the exhaust is only part of the story as swapping the entire system for something much better generally only adds 10 to 15 bhp on an otherwise standard engine!! If the engine is modified a decent exhaust is worth more however!!
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Old 10-07-2012, 06:20   #11
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Default Re: Anybody fitted a 190 Throttle Body on a 180?

janspeed mani's made a good difference to mine.

i thought the cams were the same between inlet/exhaust.

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Old 10-07-2012, 09:27   #12
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Default Re: Anybody fitted a 190 Throttle Body on a 180?

The Janspeed mani's are so much better than the factory mani's!! Can't find anr reference to cam timings anywhere so have no idea if the exhaust is a longer duration?
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Old 10-07-2012, 09:27   #13
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Default Re: Anybody fitted a 190 Throttle Body on a 180?

When the car must be cheap also all parts are made as cheaply as they can.
ZS still had about 176 hp which is enough for most drivers.

Std 180 inlet cam: Inlet opens 2 * before TDC
closing 54* after BDC inlet period 236 */ 8,20 mm lift

Std Exhaust cam: Exhaust opens 50* before BDC
closing 14* after TDC so period 244*/8,80 mm lift

Actually 270H is better, a bit ; 260* /9,65 mm lift. In this sort of level opening degrees are not so important, but the lack of lift is. For good torque we need a lot of valve lift and not so much opening period. In this case two extra cylinders will help a lot.

For real performance in exhaust manifold and system there shouldn`t be many changes in pipe inside diameter, not that kind of lumps from welding.
As I have said, even the smallest obstacle will send a wave back towards cylinder head and every small wave coming anticlockwise will "eat" some of potential power.
Some exambles how to make it
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Old 11-07-2012, 15:47   #14
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Default Re: Anybody fitted a 190 Throttle Body on a 180?

With that inlet timing i'm suprised it revs as well as it does!! Back in my Triumph tuning days the fast road engines I built used 18-58 inlet 58-18 exhaust timings which were still pretty tractable around town even with only 1300cc to play with. The por KV6 is literally being strangled by it's inlet cam!!
Even fitting the exhaust cam in place of the inlet should improve things somewhat!!
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Old 12-07-2012, 10:53   #15
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Default Re: Anybody fitted a 190 Throttle Body on a 180?

Hi. Someone here wrote that Janspeed are not as good for gains, if you have money and professional company that makes exhausts, than they can make you manis for your specs(found rr that it gave round 8bhp - car was previously fitted with filter + decat). So my question is : Have some go this route? custom manis? I´am asking because I know one company that make custom exhausts(also for motorsport) but they have no experience with KV6 engine. (only V6 of Alfas). They quoted me 1500euros for full stainless exhaust with manis + sport cat or 550-600e for manis. Is it worth? or going standart route piper/janspeed(1200e + delivery) full ss is enough for gains?. ( future use as a fun track car)
link of the company and their porducts - http://www.a-m-a.sk/ponuka.php?lang=en
Thanks for replyes.
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Old 12-07-2012, 12:38   #16
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Default Re: Anybody fitted a 190 Throttle Body on a 180?

What works and what doesn't is very dependant on how the engine it's fitted to responds to the mod and how much it's making before the mod was fitted. So say you have a standard 180 you assume is making 177bhp and fit Janspeed mani a Js sports cat and a Js cat back system you may find you make 10 bhp more than the 177bhp the factory said it has Or put it the correct way your engine now looses 10 bhp less. But unless you tested the engine just before you fitted the exhaust you won't know exactly how much it actually gained!! If you now make 187bhp you will think that the mod is only worth 10bhp but if your engine was only making 172bhp the exhaust system was worth 15bhp!! Also some mods work better with others, eg, stick on a decent air filter you may find you add another 8 bhp!! However if you were to put the air filter on without the exhaust you will find it's only worth 4 bhp!! The thing with this kind of tuning you are never 100% sure how much each mod will give if any!! All you can do is give the engine every chance of getting a good supply of cool fresh air and a free flowing means of getting rid of the exhaust!! But one thing is for sure it's well worth getting the ecu mapped to optimize the the engine to the mods carried out!!
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Old 12-07-2012, 12:46   #17
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Default Re: Anybody fitted a 190 Throttle Body on a 180?

i thought the manis were designed this way (back into itself) to give the required torque. If you could afford it and the under chassis could accommodate Would a true 6 into 2 (appossed to the current 6 into 2 into 1) exhaust arrangment give even better gains than the janspeed manis on standard cat, intermediate and backbox?
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Old 12-07-2012, 13:26   #18
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Default Re: Anybody fitted a 190 Throttle Body on a 180?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MG ZS STE View Post
i thought the manis were designed this way (back into itself) to give the required torque. If you could afford it and the under chassis could accommodate Would a true 6 into 2 (appossed to the current 6 into 2 into 1) exhaust arrangment give even better gains than the janspeed manis on standard cat, intermediate and backbox?
So If I am understanding that right - this means two separate exhaust pipes to the end of exhaust ? for each 3 cylinder one colector and exhaust to the end?
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Old 12-07-2012, 15:49   #19
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Default Re: Anybody fitted a 190 Throttle Body on a 180?

It's not necessary to have 2 pipes running the full length of the vehicle for maximum power I'll get back to that in a moment. What is important is the primary pipes need to be long enough to stop any cylinder exhaust pulse bumping into pulse of gas into the preceding cylinder as this would send the energy from the exhaust pulse back towards the head possibly affecting the way the cylinder fill with the next charge. It's even possible to adjust primary length to allow the previous exhaust pulse to extract the next cylinder's exhaust pulse to empty it which also aids that cylinder to fill with the next charge of air!! This is know as pulse tuning which can be beneficial as a power producer. Going back to twin pipes from the manifolds. It's completely un-necessary and would ad complication and weight. The exhaust system needs to be well made with no narrowing sections and crush type bends. The boxes need to be of the straight through type or multi pass type if low noise is required but it needs to have a flow capacity of 2.2 cubic feet per minute with minimal back pressure at the manifold!!
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Old 12-07-2012, 16:03   #20
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Default Re: Anybody fitted a 190 Throttle Body on a 180?

thanks, for reply. And in teory is there enought place to do something like this in mg zs180 bay?
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Old 12-07-2012, 16:19   #21
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Default Re: Anybody fitted a 190 Throttle Body on a 180?

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thanks, for reply. And in teory is there enought place to do something like this in mg zs180 bay?
I reckon there is. Don't forget it's a V form engine so the area below the heads is pretty empty!! The hardest part is to get the pipes from the front and rear heads to meet up in a smooth and equal length from the heads which is why there is a large curve in the Janspeed's rear manifold!!
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Old 12-07-2012, 20:29   #22
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Default Re: Anybody fitted a 190 Throttle Body on a 180?

i think the JS manifolds are worth it..



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Old 13-07-2012, 08:34   #23
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Default Re: Anybody fitted a 190 Throttle Body on a 180?

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i think the JS manifolds are worth it..



Drew
So it´s 9bhp top? In whole rpm range like 5-7? For price of JS manis I was offered a custom made ones. It is neccesary to use airflow software to made good manis? or just experience is enough? Because they use software only for special applications (racing engines and so).
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KN - inner wing setup
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Old 13-07-2012, 12:25   #24
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Default Re: Anybody fitted a 190 Throttle Body on a 180?

Manifolds don't really need to be gas flowed but the builder does need to know what he is doing, particularly attention needs to be paid on the bends , the joints and the collectors!!
On the graph that Drew put up, it makes an extra 9 bhp but he didn't tell us anything els about the engine. ( not a dig at you Drew thanks for the graph!! ) It could have a standard air filter and exhaust system? If many mods are done they can complement each other so each mod would make more as part of a collection than it would on it's own!! But that is'nt always the case From experience on the KV6 that's in good condition it should make something close to 200bhp with good quality well fitted bolt on mods and a remap!
If you are after more you will need forced induction or cams, head work and possibly bin the vis plenum in favor of a better system and a perfomance ecu to run it all!!
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Old 13-07-2012, 16:00   #25
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Default Re: Anybody fitted a 190 Throttle Body on a 180?

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So it´s 9bhp top? .
look at the wheel horsepower, it looks like nearly 20 there but only 9hp at fly?

Now I know little about dynos, but i'd have thought the fly difference would be higher than wheel hp difference?
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Old 13-07-2012, 18:16   #26
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Default Re: Anybody fitted a 190 Throttle Body on a 180?

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look at the wheel horsepower, it looks like nearly 20 there but only 9hp at fly?

Now I know little about dynos, but i'd have thought the fly difference would be higher than wheel hp difference?

The flywleel power looks a little down by comparison to wheel power difference?? The flywleel power is calculated from wheel torque X speed - transmission losses then multiplied by some correction factor and you end up with flywleel power!! 20 bhp at the wheels would be more than 9 at the fly!!
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Old 13-07-2012, 19:22   #27
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Default Re: Anybody fitted a 190 Throttle Body on a 180?

std was 175 on the same rollers. i added a bmc filter and a decat before that graph.
the first graph is with a janspeed system on top of those mods, then the over graph is with the manifolds added.

it felt like there was more power all over after they were fitted. i didnt need a remap.

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Old 14-07-2012, 08:16   #28
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Default Re: Anybody fitted a 190 Throttle Body on a 180?

So you started with 175bhp. Added a CDA, a decat and Janspeed exhaust which gave 186bhp. Then added the Js mani's which gave an extra 9bhp giving a total of 195 bhp. All without a remap. Which is pretty much what I saw with similar mods a few years ago in my last 180!!
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Old 14-07-2012, 12:35   #29
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Default Re: Anybody fitted a 190 Throttle Body on a 180?

yeah, ive uploaded a few plots on here if your interested..

http://www.dyno-plot.co.uk/dyno/dynoplot/index.htm

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Old 15-07-2012, 16:03   #30
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Default Re: Anybody fitted a 190 Throttle Body on a 180?

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yeah, ive uploaded a few plots on here if your interested..

http://www.dyno-plot.co.uk/dyno/dynoplot/index.htm

Drew
Yes , I know all your graphs from rr. I thing wheel output should be written everywhere, no engine output. One more question. Is it better to also made a custom cat back system , or doesn´t matter and JS or piper are good designed? Thanks for reply
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ZS180 mk2 ( red dragon II ) - 2005
KN - inner wing setup
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Old 15-07-2012, 22:19   #31
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Default Re: Anybody fitted a 190 Throttle Body on a 180?

i think the cat back needs to be 2.5" max, any system will be as good as another.

wheel output may tell you which car will be faster on the ground but that does also have its drawbacks. i have different gearing to most zs so i believe my atw figures will be different.

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Old 16-07-2012, 13:30   #32
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Default Re: Anybody fitted a 190 Throttle Body on a 180?

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Yes , I know all your graphs from rr. I thing wheel output should be written everywhere, no engine output. One more question. Is it better to also made a custom cat back system , or doesn´t matter and JS or piper are good designed? Thanks for reply
What is important with exhaust design is it's ability to flow the vast amounts of gas with minimum back pressure but without being overly large!! 2.5" is the max that is required provided the bends are properly formed and the silencers are well made absorption type!! Ideally the tail pipe needs to be the same size as the rest of the system and not a 4" thing!!
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Old 16-07-2012, 18:18   #33
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Default Re: Anybody fitted a 190 Throttle Body on a 180?

ha ha ha laughing my a55 off at the tuner of the r200!
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Old 16-07-2012, 20:08   #34
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Default Re: Anybody fitted a 190 Throttle Body on a 180?

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and not a 4" thing!!
oh, thats mine out the window then :0

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Old 17-07-2012, 21:39   #35
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Default Re: Anybody fitted a 190 Throttle Body on a 180?

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Actually 270H is better, a bit ; 260* /9,65 mm lift. In this sort of level opening degrees are not so important, but the lack of lift is. For good torque we need a lot of valve lift and not so much opening period. In this case two extra cylinders will help a lot.
Snowy, i got some 285H in my ZS. although i couldnt get the exact timing figures piper wanted i got quite close.

Inlet/Exh 274* / 11mm lift. they wanted 2.2mm l@tdc in and 2mm l@tdc exh. i believe the valves/pistons were touching just off tdc so i dropped them to 2mm inl and 1.8 exhaust.

runs ok atm, still needs to be tuned but i think ill get some extra from it.

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