Blown Head Gasket MG190ZT+

[blue harbour]

So are we thinking then that a poss cracked liner allowed coolant into the cyl, and it's that what broke the valve head off!??

[frenchfries111]

Hi Dave: yep, but its what has happened after the valve head coming of that worries me,,,, i ll know tomorrow the full grizzzzzzzzzly details...... Thats if i can find out the head size for the cylinder head bolts,,,,,,,, its a torx something or other

[frenchfries111]

hi Blue: Not sure until head come off tomorrow,,,,,,,,,,,

[CHARGER]

Its probably embedded the valve sideways in the piston head.

Unfortunately, to change the liner and piston assembly the engine has to be removed.

To be honest, it probably would be cheaper to source another engine than to repair that one.

We sell quite a few of these units mostly for freelanders and zt`s.

Ive only ever sold engines for a zs when they have had an impact on the front end and caused damaged to the front cam wheel causing bent valves.

George

[RaptorUK]

Originally Posted by dave mgt

HGF or a damaged liner Could very easy damage valves as your get coolent leaking into the cylinders!!! They would be the 1st thing to bend.

Not sure I understand why . . . I can imagine coolant in the cylinders is a bad thing but why would it break a valve ? can you explain the mechanics ?

[Rally Matt]

Hydraulic'ing

The "squish" area (the space where the charge mixture is under maxiumum compression) is small if you introduce an virtually incompressible liquid (ie coolant) then its enough to bend valves, smash through piston crowns, shatter liners etc.

You only need to see the damage on engines that suck up water to see how much carnage it can cause.

Only time we have lost a valve head off it embedded itself in the block of one of the rally cars, too such a degree it fused with the alloy of the block. Pity as I would have liked it as a momento of such a big failure!

Is it not possible to change the piston and liner in situ on a KV6?

[RaptorUK]

Originally Posted by Rally Matt

Hydraulic'ing

The "squish" area (the space where the charge mixture is under maxiumum compression) is small if you introduce an virtually incompressible liquid (ie coolant) then its enough to bend valves, smash through piston crowns, shatter liners etc.

Ah OK, I see, even if the valves are closed during the compression cycle if its liquid being compressed that is a lot of pressure and probably enough to push trough a valve and break the head of . . . . thanks for the info.

[Rally Matt]

Problem is the valve are not closed fully when the coolant is in there, they are closing rather than closed.

[frenchfries111]

Hi

No, i hardly ever swear and i cant see why the word " ******" bug**er was not allowed, oh well never mind.
O.k i have taken the head off, but before i explain whats happened, just like to say "thanks for all your advice and time".
Head came of in 15mins this AM and yes it is a E12 thanks for that info Rlly Matt.
As you can see by the pics on forum, the head gasket looks fine both sides but the multi layer has parted by Number four pot, Im inclined to think that maybe it parted whilst taking the head off maybe??? dont know.
Well number four pot is well and truly wasted, as you can see the valve has imbeded itself into the top of the piston and head. The liner has a multitude of cracks in it, some hairline some hudge all in all a total mess.
The senarios are as you stated ERally matt. Either the head gasket went, cooling the chamber and building up pressure snapping the valve, embeding in piston and cracking the liner.
Or not a head gasket faliure, a liner faliure allowing water into the chamber and then resulting in the damage to the head, piston etc, not sure on that one. If you would have a look at the pics and give me you thoughts.
Well im stuck now. What do i do, new engine or rebuild. Would i be confident in a rebuild of this engine, as in ( would it happen again if i rebuilt this engine ( RELPCING THE LINER, CON ROD, BEARINGS, PISTON HEAD, RINGS, CYLINDER HEAD) who knows what other liners, valves, the other CHG may be defective on this engine, Theres another five Combustion chambers. Its a risk that im not sure i want to take.
I WOULD VALUE YOURS AND OTHER FORUMS MEMBERS THOUGHTS ON THIS PLEASE. Its a August 04 plate, 35,000 on clock immaculate inside and out, had no other faliures, no problems until this. "What do you all think i should do?
THANKS FOR ALL YOUR HELP : FRENCHFRIES OFF FOR A STIFF DRINK NOW, IM DEVISTATED.

[smilerbaker]

Personally I'd buy another engine, rotten luck

[frenchfries111]

Still look on the good side Frenchfries111, its only cost me £3.56 for a E12 socket so far and about 6hrs work in a frezzzzzin garage.

[frenchfries111]

Thanks for input Smiler: Need all the advice i can get on this one.

[frenchfries111]

If you need a momento of a valve sheering and imbeding in the head block, cracking the piston sleeves!!!!!!!!!!!!!! rally matt,,,,,, i have one here all ready to ship to you !!!!!!!!!!!!! cost about £1500.00 ...... Joking honest i am,,,,,,

[TimmR_ZS180]

Personally, I'd be sourcing a new engine....

Then for the fun of it I'd rebuild the old one
(and sell it! LOL)

[frenchfries111]

Thanks TimmR, AS I SAID NEED ALL YOUR IMPUT NOW, NOT SURE MESSIN ABOUT IN THIS WEATHER IS FUN THOUGH AND WHO KNOWS IT MAY DO IT AGAIN IN ANOTHER POT, WHO KNOWS WHAT STRESSES HAVE BEEN INFLICTED ON THE CAMS ECT!!!!!

[CHARGER]

Well to replace a liner and piston means the removal of the engine and a complete strip down.

I would say you would be better off sourcing another engine. I do have a couple, one with 39k on.

Like i said, it is just not worth the haslle of stripping it down, you may find it has knackered the alloy block where the liner goes.

G

[Rally Matt]

My first feelings would be that the head came off the valve, they are friction welded to the stems so there is a potentially weaker part, what does tend to cause valve failure is overheating due to lean running, running low on fuel and sucking air into engine, back firing exhausts due to air leaks etc.

Once the head had left the stem all the subsequent damage is just what you would expect to see. HG looks what I would expect and not signs of failure although you would need to see it much closer up to 100% accurate!

[frenchfries111]

Hi Rally Matt, never run here on empty, the exhaust is fine in fact it was just perfect. As i said no trouble for two years then, this happened. It was just a catostrophic faliure nothing had even indicated that there was something wrong, totaly nothing.
Then sudden loss of power, 15 seconds onto hard shoulder and that was that.

Anyway, no good crying over spilt milk, what would your advice be, value your opinion.

Regards : Frenchfries111. p.s already had a guy offering me another engine with 39k on the clock for £600.00 "do you know him, his id is posted on my thread, Depends what its come out of, how can i find out if the engine has only done 39k and how do i know if its ok.

[CHARGER]

Rally Matt knows me, and the engine is still in the car running.

G

[frenchfries111]

charger if you know rally matt thats good enough for me, send me pics please

[peteT16]

I would source another engine, I'm pretty sure in the long run it will work out cheaper and easier than trying to rebuild the old one.

[GTMSpyder]

I've had a couple of engines off Charger (George), both perfect. One is now in a trackday car the other being beuilt as a tuned engine...

[frenchfries111]

Thanks for the offer of the engine. Taking into account all of the advice that people have given me, both here and localy. I have now decided that i will rebuild my engine.

To put the new pistons in, would see me possibly having to remove my old engine first " as you have explained" and to put a new engine in would also see me removing my old engine, "as you stated in your post". So i would be no better off time wise in that respect.

My initial reaction to the faliure was a blown head gasket and threrfore i was going to change both head gaskets, have both heads skimed, pressure tested, Valves re-ground, new springs, guides, re-new all cam belts whilst the heads were off and renew the water pump, thermastate, plugs, filters, oil, anti-freeze etc anyway. "These are also things i would also have done to any donor engine as a matter of good practical sence before refitting the new engine as well".

So if the engine has to come out "it has to come out" and to replace one piston, rings, con rod , liner and all end bearings, would therefore be the better option "cost wise" for me, as the new piston, rings, con rod , liner and end bearings would be a fraction of the cost of the donor engine "over and above what i was going to spend anyway" and the parts i can order from my local Garage "an Ex MG Dealer".

I would like to thank you for your advice and the offer of the engine, but have decided to take this option. Great site and everyones help in this has been invaluable to me. "Once again, thanks George for the offer of the engine"
Will post pic`s on site on the progress.

Kind Regards Frenchfries:

[CHARGER]

Cheers..

Just posted in your engine thread in the zt section !

G

[frenchfries111]

Thanks for your comments Charger. There is one other consideration i did take into account and that was possibly the most important to me,,,,, I do not like being hard sold to, through P.MS AND EMAILS. Asking me to make up my mind quick as two other buyers may drop out and that you would lose a sale, is not my concern. If you have two other buyers sell it to one of those.

Once again thanks for your comments.

Regards: Frenchfries111

[CHARGER]

Fair enough.

I was just advising you thats all.

You asked via email, and i replied..

And the engine has been sold anyway, I just gave you a fair chance, and you couldnt even be bothered to reply to my message anyway.

Live and learn eh !

G

[frenchfries111]

Theres no need for your rather rude comments. "Is this the standard of advice and level of aptitude that you show to people if they do not go along with your general opinoin".
But lets cut to the chace " your were advising me nothing" you wanted to sell me an engine and just because i said no, after your pushy emails and P.MS, you have your arse in your hands.

I do not think there is any reason, for any input on any of my threads for any further discusions between myself and your good self "now you have at last sold your engine" do you" ? Unless you just like chattin to me.

Here endeth the conversation, but i will miss you.

Kind Regards: Frenchfries111

[CHARGER]

Im just responding to factual comments .

i dont think its rude, and im not bothered you didnt buy the engine. And I wasnt the only member advising you to change the engine rather than rebuild the one you have !

Pushy emails? You sent me 2 in the space of half an hour for a picture of the engine, obviously you needed reminding of what a working complete one looks like !

I did the decent thing and ask instead of taking someone elses money without bothering to ask you? Its called common decency. Sorry if you think thats being pushy.

At the end of the day you either want it or you dont. simple.

I dont seem to have any problems selling engines, I was just trying to give you 1st refusal and now we have the soap drama.

I even advised you that we did have pistons and liners and cylinder heads available should have you wanted to go the route of rebuilding your current engine. So again, dont see how im trying to push you into buying my low mileage engine.

Anyhow, I wouldnt sell anything to you now anyway, as you probably would say it wasnt as decribed and start a war !

G

[frenchfries111]

See what i mean "your arse is in your hands." Its a car, a piece of metal at the end of the day. I listened to your advice, but decided to take other advice, its no slight against you at all George at all, i can see how upset your getting over this whole thing.
I just decided that the other advice was better for my situation and so opted for that, thats all, Sa Va George.
Anyway calm down "You will have a heart attack at this rate" Just concerned for your well-being and offering you some good advice here". But if the unfortunate inccident happens, i may know a man in India or Japan who sells hearts, but with the demand for these things so high "Has to take into account Age, Sex, Blood Type , Tissue Matches, etc: So he will need to know by the morning if you require one. Heres his phone number 666 56747 94456744.
Hey i hate soaps also, so lets drop it now, go for a pint and you can show me your new heart, all gleaming, new and full of grace.

Regards Frenchfries111. " love chattin to you"

[CHARGER]

Originally Posted by frenchfries111

See what i mean "your arse is in your hands." Its a car, a piece of metal at the end of the day. I listened to your advice, but decided to take other advice, its no slight against you at all George at all, i can see how upset your getting over this whole thing.
I just decided that the other advice was better for my situation and so opted for that, thats all, Sa Va George.
Anyway calm down "You will have a heart attack at this rate" Just concerned for your well-being and offering you some good advice here". But if the unfortunate inccident happens, i may know a man in India or Japan who sells hearts, but with the demand for these things so high "Has to take into account Age, Sex, Blood Type , Tissue Matches, etc: So he will need to know by the morning if you require one. Heres his phone number 666 56747 94456744.
Hey i hate soaps also, so lets drop it now, go for a pint and you can show me your new heart, all gleaming, new and full of grace.

Regards Frenchfries111. " love chattin to you"

nah Id rather the heart attack , just like the one you will have after totting up the cost of replacing that piston.

Actually the advice I gave was incorrect.

Scrap the car for bits, it will make more money than its worth right now. Then coupled with the money you would have spent on an engine rebuild, you can go and buy another zt !

Sound advice that.

G

[Ritchy]

hate *****in.. ive seen certain engines just drop valves like this, comes to mind is alfa romeo the twin sparks, could just be a faulty component at the end of the day, bound to happen somewhere down the line, as regards the rebuild propably would be asier out as said in the other threads, everything working on engines is easier otu, doing the timing belts and everything, the standard id think would be a lot higher doing it this way and also possibly quicker at the same time, only hastle is the engine crane situation but you can get one second hand then sell it afterwards and pretty much make your money back on it, look forward to seeing further pictures and good luck with your progress
ritchy

[DeMoNPauL]

George what the hell is your problem?

The guy doesnt want your engine?

Get over it

Surely its not worth the hassle?

[CHARGER]

Paul Im not bothered.

But politeness and manners doesnt go amiss matey !

I wont bother next time !

G

[frenchfries111]

Thanks Ritchy and DeMon:

[frenchfries111]

Emmmmmmm, your post re-entered below????? Shows that i did the right thing, Advice given "free of charge" is worth the earth. Advice given that requires a return is not advice. O.k Im a little bored with this banter, i have much more important things to do " like iron the newspaper, feed the cat or possibly today, take an engine out as im rebuilding it, or another option is to send it away to be rebuilt as another member has advised ( will phone that place today "cost me alot more but, save me the work" So thanks again Charger, good luck.

nah Id rather the heart attack , just like the one you will have after totting up the cost of replacing that piston.

Actually the advice I gave was incorrect.

Scrap the car for bits, it will make more money than its worth right now. Then coupled with the money you would have spent on an engine rebuild, you can go and buy another zt !

Sound advice that.